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  • Josh Bolton

Interview with Michelle Stinson Ross


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happened today for you. Um, other than I walked a giant monitor from my apartment over to this office. Oh, fun. I have been working from home in a little 500 square foot apartment for several months. And I finally realized, Oh, wait. I could do an office. Yeah. Let's do an office. No, I don't like this do 500 foot stuff. Oh, yeah, I'm slowly getting stuff moved from one spot to the next. Wonderful, good job, anything in particular you want to go over? Um, and now I I'm here to answer your questions and have a good conversation. Absolutely. Let's do it. So, Michelle, you were what do you do for like a work? We were just talking about your office? What do you do for work? And like, Where do you live? So I am the Director of Marketing for a tech startup called mindful appy. And what mindful app is, is a workplace mental health type app. We're just getting it launched. But I'm really excited about that workplace mental health after as many years as I've been in all kinds of different workplaces. I'm like, this. This is good. This is good. We're gonna do good things with this. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So where is it stationed? Like, its headquarters? The company is based in Austin, Texas, and I am personally based in St. Paul, Minnesota. Brilliant part of working remote. Mm hmm. So the mental health part of this whole thing? How is it? Is it more of like q&a or like an actual like a read your Apple Watch saying, oh, you're stressed kind of thing. We're working on several options. Right now, the current version of mindful appy is it's meant to be an HR run type system. So it's, it's an escalation, a company would sign up for mindful appy. And they would be able to put anybody that wants to participate in it, put their cell phone in, and then all of the participants daily, get a little text message asking them, how do you feel today? Let me see. I, I have been using it myself, okay, for several months now. And I just want to Here we go. give you kind of a sense of like, what some of the pulses sounded like, like, Tuesday, I got one that said Sharing is caring. share an emoji and tell me how you feel. And they Okay, cute. But yeah, Wednesday was Don't hold back, share how you feel with an emoji. And then yesterday was again, don't hold back share an emoji. So we we kind of have several of these little questions. One day I got, I want to know, How are you feeling? Tell me what's on your mind with an emoji. So the response is, so you can see on camera. Okay. What makes this brilliant is we have an algorithm that understands kind of what the emoji means. And we can compile data that's completely anonymous. The emoji takes a lot of the identifying factors out of it, like, I would be able to identify a coworker, by the way they phrase things if they were writing, yes, yes, this, this takes a lot of that identity, a lot of the identifiers out. we compile that and we can report back to a company that, hey, your marketing group, if that's the way they've got it group, most of them are doing pretty good today. Or let's say you've got a division that has a new VP or something like that. And they can kind of check in and make sure that everybody's okay with the management change. Or in the case of COVID, this would have been fantastic for companies, you can say this would have been great, right when it first hit. Right, right. How do you feel about working from home? How do you feel about coming back to the office? There's lots of things that we can survey very quickly. And what's really cool about this is that once you respond, you get a link back to see basically a either a word cloud or a graph or something. So you can see how everybody in your group is responding. Interesting, anonymous, it's just like a word cloud. But it does give you a sense of how your team in general is doing that day. This, this will be very powerful when it kicks off because like, for me, I still work a normal corporate job, a night shift. And everyone's morale does not exist. And it's just one of those. So if we had this, at least the manager himself could be like, oh, let's just say because I work at a grocery store at the produce department. It's struggling, like they don't know what to do. But when he sees the data, it's like, oh, well, then I'll just go talk to them. See what I can help with anything? It's it's a, it's not invasive, but it's a good check into people's minds. Right? Well, we are also using it in partnership with Nami, the National Alliance for mental illness, Nami Central Texas. So not only is organized in in regions, right, so we're working specifically with Nami, Central Texas, okay. And the central Texas chapter has several workplace mental health workshops that they offer all kinds of companies all over the region. And we have now done three companies where we did that type of pulse, five days before they did a workshop, and then we continue doing the full pulse. You could do the elephant died, it's okay, the pulse five days after the workshop, and they offer anything from stress management, empathy in the workplace, they do one on removing mental health stigmas that they call, how are you really doing, that's actually the title of the workshop. So we do it with Nami, in order to validate and make sure that the companies that they're doing trainings with are really getting the most out of it. Okay, it's interesting, even with small teams, like we've done a couple where the teams were just like 10, to 12 people. And even with small teams, we can see that when we check like a standard assessment or survey about, like stress management, before and after, because Nami still does their own little survey things. But then we put that against what we're seeing in their daily emotional, emotional pulses. And we can validate just a little bit more what's going on and give context to, like feedback they received for doing their workshop or whatever, was really interesting, because we're finding that the system does exactly what we thought it would do. And it's able to identify when somebody is struggling, without them having to just really, you know, without them having to go through the stress and anxiety of actually approaching their manager and going, Hey, I'm struggling, because that's so hard to do in the workplace. And that's one of the, that's one of the things we're wanting to turn around is approaching management's HR, whatever and saying, you know what, this, this isn't great. It's not working out, you know, COVID COVID is making this harder rather than easier what, whatever the case may be, right? So much of through the course of the research that we've been doing, it costs any given company, millions every year just from the turnover, because stress and mental illness caused a lot. job satisfaction goes down, you decide to move on I've I've been in situations like that myself, where the environment just got so toxic, I couldn't work there anymore. And just the cost in trying to rehire and fill that position once somebody left it cost companies millions every year. Oh, yeah. Well, like for me, my position I'm a janitor, the turnover rates insane. We they can't keep someone for like two months, but but their management is so sloppy, and people are just like, well, if they're doing this, why should I stress I'll just go find like a different job kind of thing. But then you have to pay for one person, then double time for the other person, all the supplies because there's a mess up. You got to pay it again. I totally get that. That's, it's one of those I've always asked him like, why don't you just like, he asked the human how they feel. Cuz like, if they're feeling like shit, they're gonna probably take it out on your product and then cost you. Well, when you think about it, if I mean, if your manager just walked up to you face to face and asked you how you were doing, you're probably going to put a good spin on it. Right? You're you're not really going to disclose that. Yeah, unless you're really, really stressed and you're, like, ready for somebody to do something about it. But for most days, we're good. We're gonna put a good face on it. And we're gonna say, you know, sir, everything's fine. Yeah, that's kind of the standard answer, because I don't I don't want to be the problem. One child at work, right? No one wants to actually hear my feelings gonna say they're asking out of politeness, but they don't actually want to know. Right? Well, this system allows us to kind of cut through that the reticence to first of all, ask the reticence to honestly answer all that kind of stuff. Plus, because of the way we're using the actual emojis, like I said, there's an algorithm, we can actually quantify this for you. There is data behind this data that enables a management team or a C suite to actually start making some good decisions. Because like I said, this could just be a daily pulse on just how are you doing just generally speaking, but the system can be configured because custom questions are a possibility. They can specifically ask the staff at large, how do you feel about, I don't know, an upcoming merger, an upcoming policy change, they can start to get a sense of also how people are doing with a policy change like COVID. There was there was no, yeah, we all want to start wearing masks that that was not ever a question. But we can use the system to kind of help people navigate and manage how well they're handling a transition to. Yes, sometimes it's it's just how it's communicated. That's really the problem. It's not that the change was the problem. But how well it was communicated, how it was communicated. And this type of system with that type of emotional data can really help a company make changes a lot easier. Yes. It's one of those. Like, I always joke with my coworkers. They're like, How do you feel? And I actually say what I'm saying thinking is like, oh, crippling, depression, anxiety, but perfectly normal stuff kind of thing, though. Like, oh, Josh is funny, Mike. One of them's Actually, I don't think he's joking. But okay. That's where I was laughing. Really? I'm like, yeah, that, no, people won't say it. But I'll gladly say it just to see what people do. But the, but for them, I was just thinking as them non invasive, just emoji real quick, good to go kind of thing. Well, and what's really awesome, is the flip side of this. So for the individual, for me personally using this system, even though this is the most stripped down version of mindful appy that this will ever be, because the thread is always the same number. Do you see over time, I can see how I'm doing. I have a record of my emotional responses over a period of time. What is the snowman mean? Um, I really think that that was probably just the day that it was snowing outside. And I was excited that I just moved to St. Paul from Texas Boulton. So for me to see it snowing is still exciting and happy. And so yeah, the snowman was probably a day that it was snowing. And I decided that, you know, that was happening. Awesome. So let's say accidentally, because I have bad fingers. I accidentally send two emojis, would you pick the first one up? Or both? Would it evaluate? Um, that's a good question. We really haven't ever had an issue with it. Because you're sitting there, most people are going to sit and kind of think about that for just a hot second. And I don't know that we've actually had and because our test groups are really small. But that's a fascinating question. And I'll have to ask. We make counted as two entries. Actually. Interesting. Yeah, that would be interesting, but not bad. No, I mean, there's there's not really a negative to, you know, responding more than once. Actually, I could probably, I've already responded to the pulse for today. I could probably go tap it again. And it would not care. Right. Yeah, because I, when I first was transitioning a night shift, I downloaded a similar app, it was just free, like when you wake up because I've the night shift where I had a tiller, like, talk to me at like 11pm kind of thing when I'm waking up, and it would just check in morning, afternoon and evening before like dinner. And I noticed like when I woke up I was super happy when I was at work super sad when I got home was like a kind of thing. So that would be an interesting add into that too. Because that helped me realize like okay, when at work. You want to work hard, but also because of the structure you can't give a lot of care to it kind of thing. So well and it's interesting you you borrowed up like Stress Management and and the physical sensations of monitoring somebody we're stressed distress. So right now this is strictly just a feedback loop. And we're working mostly on building out the company side dashboard. But eventually this will go from a text message system, which it is right now to something more like an app. And we're absolutely already looking at the technology for how we might be able to get the app to look at like, I have a Garmin, okay, that does heart rate and blood oxygen. And and it's it's one of the nicer ones. Yeah. And we're looking at the API connections to that. And Can Can we integrate our app into something like this is already tracking to alert me to when I'm feeling stressed? And I might need to take a minute. Yeah, isn't it like for heart rate spikes within under a second, like seven beats or 210 beats, you're actually like, stress kind of thing? Well, so not only can we do heart rate, but we can also do respiration rate, at least with with the tracker like this, that oxygen? Yeah, that's looking at my blood oxygen, as well as, like breath rate and whatever. So we can set up something that within certain parameters of heart rate, respiration, the whole thing and say, You don't seem to be working out right now. Are you okay? Yes. Yeah. Leave the Apple Watch. They got your heart just suddenly picked up really quick. Are you okay? Just that act of that, that's the mindfulness aspect of it, anything that can disrupt you, and cause you to pause and be more aware of what you're doing, how you're feeling? Just the act of disrupting that a little bit. helps with emotional regulate, regulate? Yes, yes. It's one of those emotions. I think people don't realize the majority not all, make decisions off emotions. And if you're doing that, it might get worse than it makes a worse decision. It's just a very terrible loop. But if you have a reminder like that, it's like, oh, I better calm down kind of thing. Well, we've also been doing some research, my business partner is currently working on a master's degree in organizational psychology, which is that workplace mental health type aspect of it, right. And some of the things that were very quickly seeing in the research and the studies that she's running, as part of her program with Harvard, is emotional intelligence, is, first of all, something that can be learned, most of what makes up emotional intelligence are actually skills that can be learned, you can improve your degree of emotional intelligence over time. But the biggest factor in emotional intelligence is actually emotional awareness. How aware? Are you of your own emotions? How you experience emotions? How maybe one emotion blends into another, as well as being aware of the emotional states of people around you. You combine those up? And that's kind of the heart of emotional intelligence, the intelligence part kicks in, in okay. I see it, I understand that. What am I gonna do with it? The intelligence aspect is obviously the action part of it. It's like, I can sit here and read somebody else all day long. And go, Okay, I understand what you're what you're going through. But until I communicate that I'm not really acting on it. Right. But the awareness piece is, is the big deciding factor. And we can learn skills that make us more aware of how we're feeling ourselves, as well as taking the time and effort to be more aware of the emotional state of someone around us. Yeah, and how would you think we'd approach this? Would it be through your app or just different mindsets that would just be commonly taught, I would say that the app probably works best if an individual is making that effort on their own if they're practicing things like mindfulness or emotional awareness. So for somebody that may not, may not be familiar with what mindfulness is, it's, it is a psychological practice. Basically, at its heart, mindfulness says that emotions are neither good nor bad. They just are. Right and we will Want to be aware of what we're feeling and allow ourselves to feel it for a moment. So I recently wrote an article on mindfulness. And I gave this example. Let's say, I'm cooking dinner in the kitchen, it's been a hard day, the kids are added, the spouse is added all that kind of stuff. I've just like, I just, I just want to get through this. And I'm, I'm quietly just doing my thing, when all of a sudden, the spouse, the life partner, whoever walks in and decides to go reach something out the fridge. They don't say anything to me. But they get in my way, they don't acknowledge that I'm standing there working, and they get something out of the fridge and they walk away. All of a sudden, I feel angry. Now, then, I can either just kind of shove that anger away and take it out on the vegetables, or, or brilliant shopping session, I can take a deep breath, and go and acknowledge at least to myself that I feel angry. Why do I feel angry? Why is it my spouse coming in here and getting something out of the fridge? When I'm obviously making dinner? Why am I upset about that right now. And just cut it. Because what mindfulness does, especially when when we stop and pause, and just acknowledge, I'm feeling this emotion, I'm going to allow myself to feel this emotion for a moment. Doing that allows us to feel it and process it without necessarily engaging in behavior that's going to, you know, blow up and make like a relationship or situation worse. So if I weren't being mindful, and I just acted out in that anger, and let my spouse have it for being a jerk, or at least me perceiving that they're being a jerk, right, then. Yeah, that could cause problems, because you know, what? odds are? They have no idea. They don't know where you're going through this. Assume all is good. Yeah, totally. And so for somebody to lash out in an angry moment, right, then in there, first off, would probably catch the life partner completely off guard and go, what, what they do, what, where's this coming from? Right? So they don't have the context, you're not supplying any plus, a lot of our perceptions of good and bad around emotions really isn't about the emotion, but about the behavior that it triggers. Like, it's like a child having a temper, temper tantrum in the middle of a store, right? That behavior is socially unacceptable. We don't really want the kids screaming their head off. Not. It's not that the child felt angry, that we want, we just don't want them screaming about it, right? It's the behavior that in that moment, right or wrong, right? But what do you do with a small child when, when they're screaming, you're not going to take the time to explain them that sweetheart? This, this behavior is not acceptable right now. You want to tell them to stop right? And how often do we tell them to quiet down stop being angry, you know, we write, we don't think about it, right? We just try and explain it to a child in the smallest turn in the simplest terms possible. Unfortunately, that simplification leads us to making a judgment call about the emotion rather than the behavior. So going back a little bit, mindfulness is that practice, that's a skill that we learn to give us a moment to feel and process the emotion before we act out. And that's one of the big things that is very, very helpful in emotional regulation. Plus, the more we are aware, we take the time to actually feel and acknowledge that the sooner we're probably aware of where an emotional state may be heading off into something that's far worse. For instance, I suffer from mild degrees of depression and anxiety. Thanks to practicing mindfulness, I usually am aware of like physical sensations that are being triggered by either a sense of anxiety or whatever I Matter of fact, since moving here, further north, I've had a couple of days where I'm like, man, I just feel kind of blue and bummed out that I've learned over time that that's my warning signal that if I don't take action if I don't do something Maybe it's bundled up, put on a coat, go outside, get some fresh air and sunshine, I just need it because of seasonal affective disorder. But by being mindful and being aware, I can stop a cycle of something that could become far worse. So it's been a huge benefit to me to be able to go, okay. I'm feeling this right now. I need to stop and think about that. What does that line up? And, you know, like, there have been days where, thanks to the pandemic, I feel really anxious. But there's not really any one thing in particular that's triggering that anxiety. It's not, it's not like I've got a deadline. It's not like I'm running out of money, you know, the things that would seem normal and reasonable about triggering some anxiety. That's not what's going on, I just generally feel out of whack. Yeah, by being mindful of things like that, that's when you can go, Okay, wait a second. So there's not really anything in particular, triggering that there's not like an outside stimulus that should make me feel that way. That means that probably what's going on is biochemical. And in which case, I need to start taking the steps to deal with this before it snowballs into something worse. So, and that's just me that these are things that I've learned about myself. Now, that's not meant to diagnose anybody else or no, no, any advice? I'm just saying that this, this is the kind of thing that you can get to in your own life, because I've done it, right. If I've done it, anybody can do it. Yeah. But when you combine mindfulness practices like that, with a regular check in something like mindful appy, then you can see how, okay, I'm developing the skills and the knowledge to go around, where that record of daily check in actually becomes even more valuable to me, because then I could, it might be my even earlier warning signal, beyond like a physical sensation of anxiety or whatever, if if I'm actually like, responding back in somewhat negative or even, like, tired. Tired is usually one of those things, especially if I feel like I'm getting really decent sleep. And yet, I'm tired. That's another thing that could be a signal. And those are things that you can track and record with an app with something like mind blowing. That's, Wow, that's so much. It's so good, too. It's a lot of topics, just like we were saying earlier, not many want to actually just go into it, because there's the social platforms not ready for it. So you were talking about mindfulness earlier. Within all that? Do you also practice a type of meditation? I do. And that actually comes from more of a traditional Christian American upbringing. Okay. Meditation takes on the form of prayer for me, but yes, I do. And I tend to lean into it when I'm feeling anxious. It is one of those things that I can stop, I can pause, I can quiet everything else down and deal with whatever is causing them anxiety, or at least being able to identify what might be causing those anxious feelings. So yes, I probably don't practice meditation, as much as I constantly practice the emotional awareness. Mostly because the awareness, the mindfulness stuff has become such a habit. It's like, I don't even think about anymore. Whereas with meditation, I have to be a lot more purposeful. I have to make time, I have to at least stop what I'm doing long enough. Whereas at this point in, in my personal mental health journey, that awareness thing just kind of automatically kicks in. I don't have to think too hard to go. Wait a second. Okay, that's what that is. All right, moving on. Yep. Yeah. My uncle ages ago gave me an old book called The miracle of mindfulness. And when I got like, halfway through it, one of them says, like, there's a type of act of meditation where as long as you are checking your emotions, you're doing a type of meditation kind of thing. And I just have always one of those in my high interesting like, that is interesting. Just the fact that you're being self aware, is a type of meditation. So let's Let's go into more of the corona stuff. What are you doing other than work for like pastime, like a hobbies that you've picked up because of the lockdown? I love it that you asked that. Because I learned too, though, when I was really young, but I hadn't picked that up in a while. As soon as the pandemic hit, and especially fall masks were difficult to purchase. I mean, there there was that period of time in February, March and even in Austin, even into April, where you could not get, you know, a standard like little throwaway blue mass for love or money. You just couldn't get them, because everybody wanted them. And the manufacturing hadn't caught up with the demand. So I'm like I can so so that was one of the first things I did was I started sewing my own masks. And I'll show you Oh, that's, that looks professional. Awesome. So these I I honestly, thanks to that sewing skill. I I haven't purchased a mask for myself at all. And of course, with the discussions of the new variants and how much more contagious they are. I'm now putting a filter in my homemade masks that's offset. These, I just found that I like the fit of the ones that I made myself. So back to your dimensions. After a while I'm like, Well, what other Crafty Things can I do so eventually, funny that you say, I wound up picking up yarn and crochet. And I look awesome. So you put in or like a diamond? Oh, no, this Yes. Okay, so bear with us. I realized this is actually a podcast for some of you, but my little hat. I converted it. So that that's genius. Absolutely genius. All right, I need to order more. Now. I have a hand crocheted, little winter beanie. And I added buttons to the side right about where my ears are when I have the hat on. So that when I'm outdoors, I can put the mask on the buttons on my hat rather than having the ear loops, irritating my ears for however long I'm out running errands and whatever. And honestly, here in Minnesota in this time of year, even running errands going in and out of the shops, most of us keep our hats lawn, yes. Hat mask, I'm good to go. But so yeah, some of those domestic skills are what I wound up getting back involved in, which is weird, because I'm also a writer, and for whatever reason, just the stress of COVID has just destroyed my motivation to write and work on a novel that I actually have in progress. But I just I have absolutely no energy for that. But I'll sit with a ball of yarn and crochet for whatever. I think it's just mainly we want to do something physical and crocheting would would get an axe just sitting in one spot for hours. It's like, I can think about that all I want. Do I actually want to apply it? Or do I want to sit there and fidget with something? Or, like, the hours that we've spent watching television because you can't go out and do much of anything else? Well, after a while I even get bored of television. And at least if I'm doing crochet or something like that I I can kind of keep myself interested enough in both what's on TV and what's in my hands that I'm that I'm okay with it. Yeah, so yeah, I picked up yarn and started. That's awesome. So you were talking about a story earlier? What is it the theme for it? So among all of the other things that I do, storytelling, and just sharing of experience is kind of at the heart of all of it, which is why I'm involved in mindful athletes why I'm, you know, a marketing professional. It's also why I'm a writer, that, that that aspect of telling somebody else's story or getting involved in somebody else's story is is fascinating to me. To the degree that several years ago, I got interested in Caribbean history and colonial history and I got fully emerged in the golden age of piracy in the Caribbean. Interesting, okay, that got me fascinated and I actually started writing pirate fiction about 10 years. years ago. What? Yeah, that's awesome. How many I wrote, I wrote and published a short work called Revenge of the siren song. And it is available on Amazon, you can you can get it as either a print book or on Kindle. I wrote that several years ago. I loved the characters and and the depth of the history of the Golden Age of piracy that I have planned always to write at least three total books. And I'm currently working on the second book, the follow up to revenge of the siren song. But there's been so much else in my life going on that it seems like that's the one thing that is being ignored. It's like the poor redheaded stepchild just waiting for me to pay attention to it again. I totally get it, there was a one point in my life, that's I'm like, I'm gonna be an author, I'm gonna write books. And this night, I had creative ideas. More when I go to the pen, paper, Oh, I forgot everything. I don't feel like it. Now. I like that process. And honestly, I miss it. I, I feel like, I've lost connection with part of myself. Because I'm not doing that. But a good friend of mine very wisely told me, this is artwork, this is something creative. And at some point, you've got to make peace with your own process, there are going to be times in your life where you're distracted, or you don't have the emotional energy for it, or any number of things. And if you're constantly worried and beating yourself up about it, you're never going to get back to that. At some point, you're going to have to make peace with how this flows out of you. And know that when all of the pieces come together, all of the pieces will come together. It'll be okay. And that's that's kind of where I am with it. Right now. I am 10 chapters into the second book. And I've had to make peace with how long it's taking me to do it. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I think even Stephen King on his like book of writing. He even said, like, 30 days, he's just like, I don't feel like it. I'm just not gonna do it. But that's often, I mean, I'll sit there. And I'll think about scenarios like, I'm right now what I would really love to accomplish is writing a pirate raid into a town. And I know what I want to do. And I think about it, and there are elements of it that exist in my head. But when I sit down to try and write it, it's just not happening for me. Yes, I'm okay. I'll just let it continue to bake in my brain. And someday it'll come out. Yes. For me, I personally have found it. Like when I was trying to write all the different stuff, the moment I tried to confront it, I like it's the I make stories to distract myself. But the moment I want to look at the story, it's like, nope, kind of thing. It's, I think it's the knowledge of the moment and you're like, Oh, wait, I'm rejecting reality. Therefore, I'm like making a story. So let's talk about it. But then like you tried to go find in a sec, where is it? Would it go? Anything? Well, and you have to balance that with that, again, that mindfulness that I don't have the energy for this, or I don't, you know, it's just not there. And a lot of it for me, again, the professional aspect of what I do, I write a lot for my job already. So that all the time I've accomplished the things that I have to accomplish in order to get paycheck. There's not much left for personal writing. And so I acknowledged that I had engaged in the discipline of writing, I wrote things that day, they just weren't for the novel. And that's one of the things that you have to learn to balance there. There is a degree of Yes, I've got that creativity in the tank to use. But also the discipline of writing daily, is the you know, it's kind of flip side of that coin, you need both sides in order to successfully get a long form piece of fiction out, you know, because I've done it. But I also for me, I have to acknowledge the fact that I am engaging in that discipline. It's just that the discipline of writing for me is going to the profession, rather than the novel at the moment. Yeah. And that probably applies to just more than just writing just in general walks of life. Like if you're, you do something involving like, let's say cleaning. When you come home, you're like I don't want to clean I did this I work anything is the same thing probably for years, like you write all day like I've been writing, why do I need to write again? So it definitely does make it harder when I've, I've kind of spent all of the discipline in the bank account for the next day on work. Yeah. Yeah. But like you were touching earlier on emotional skills, it is one of those you can teach yourself and expand the the discipline bank kind of thing. Mm hmm. Um, I was perfect. I like it right there. Let's cut it. Sounds good. So anything you want to add any links descriptions? So I would say I would really love it. If you would add a link to mindful epi.com. That would be fantastic. Absolutely. I'll talk to you after about that. I'm also, probably since we talk so much about it. I will have my team do a little write up. And we would love to be able to embed it when it's all produced and out the door. When we could, you know, get a little Do you want me to send you the source file? source file not necessary if you just alert me when it's actually published? I was looking at where all your shows currently distributed. And I did find it was it. Listen notes, has an embeddable player. So just as long as I know it's been published, I can go back to listen notes and and embed it that way. Okay, cool. I didn't know that. I noticed my data. Like I get a lot from them. But I'm like, where are they getting it from? So interesting. Yeah. This is this is the digital marketer side of me. I went poking through some episodes that you had published and that kind of stuff. I'm like, Oh, dude. Need to, at the very least, the about page needs to be filled out. Yes. I recently hired a guy to do it. So yeah, but it was one of those. I bought the website. I'm like, What the hell am I gonna I don't know what I'm doing. Oh, yeah, I need to get more professional. Even if it's Skilton. I just need the basics. Yeah. Yeah. So what we'll do for you, I mean, yes, I want the back backlink to mindful appy. But what we'll also do for you is, like I said, we'll do the embed on our website and actually write up a little blurb about the appearance on the show. Most likely the brand will do some social sharing, I absolutely will do some social sharing. I'm Oh my God, thank you. I'm trying to poke through and find out all my profiles at this point. I have a bit of a social media problem apparently. I actually cut my when the pandemic hit. I was just like, Nah, this is too stressful. I'm done. Well, I mean, this is this is like a decade's worth of building out things for me, so I'm not gonna cut anything loose. I just might not be as active on them all. That's very true. Yeah, then I'll hang on.

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