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  • Josh Bolton

Interview with Patience Jones


Hello. Hi, Josh. Hey, how are you? I'm good. How are you? doing pretty good. Good. How's your lovely Friday going? Oh, it's good. It's really cold, but it's good. Where are you at? I'm in Kansas City, Missouri. So I am we've got this crazy cold front. I think right now the actual temp is like six. Which is for lots of other people in other parts of the country. That's normal, but it's not normal for here. So yeah. That's weird. Yeah. How are you? What's it like where you are? California? We just had some rain this morning. So not bad. Usually, there's three settings of California hot, hot and fucking hot. So we're at that random rain point. We don't know why. Oh, that's a good curveball. No, it is. So let's get right into it. Tell me about yourself, what, uh, what you do, and stuff like that? Sure. So my name is patients' Jones. And I own a digital marketing and strategy firm with my husband and business partner, Brian, okay. And we focus on marketing and business development for professional services. So just companies like architecture firms, engineering firms, law firms, healthcare firms. And that's our focus is informed by the previous careers that each of us had. So my husband, before he started, the company was an architect. And before I joined, I was a lawyer. And we kind of saw, we know how hard it is to develop your business while you're also trying to do your business. And we saw how it's, it's, in some ways, even harder for companies like professional firms, because most people don't really know what they do. Or why they would pick one over the other or when they need to hire one, versus when they can do something themselves, or why they cost so much. So we know the struggles of the business faces. And we also know the challenges that they face when they're trying to sell what they offer the clients. So we thought, well, this is a good, it's a good use of our skills. Yeah, that is that's also one of the very few things that people Miss. Miss gas and get I'm gonna go for Yeah, when they say, Oh, it's a big, like, famous architect for Mike your husband. They must be like doing X, Y and Z. It's like, no, they just they, they stick in their area. But like you're seeing there is now the arena where they need to branch out. You know how we call it jokingly, especially with architects, we call it the mike Brady problem. Because anybody who ever watched The Brady Bunch, you knew Mike Brady was an architect. And what you knew about being an architect was that you carried lots of cylindrical rolls around with you. And you had a desk that was up higher than everybody else's. And you always seem to be looking at plans. But that was kind of it. Like, what did he What did he study? How long was he in school? Does he have a license? What kind of projects does he do? So everybody kind of has, I think, in large part because the Brady Bunch, everybody has this baseline notion of what it means to be an architect. But it doesn't really go much beyond. You look at papers and you carry rolls of things around, or you think you know what it means. But when pressed, you're like, I really don't know what that is. So we find that that is usually the biggest, the biggest hurdle that especially architects face is, here's what I really do. Here's how this really benefits you and impacts your life impact society, you know, shapes the world that we live in and the world that we see every day. Yeah. And so for the marketing, how do you go about it? Is it like just websites, blogs, podcasts like this? Or is it like Google Ads strategically? That's a really good question, because you'll get a different answer from every person that you talk to. And I think one of the things that's changed significantly about marketing and even the last, I'll say, five to 10 years is that it can still be a narrow focus. You still have agencies where they do one thing they'll do newsletters or they'll do website development. And then there are agencies that are like, we do everything. Our focus is somewhere in between, which is we focus on the digital. And for us, that means websites, SEO, Search Engine Optimization, e newsletters, social media, lead gen campaigns. But we don't really have a one size fits all solution that we pitch to every client, we look at what's the client trying to do? Because the biggest mistake somebody can make in marketing is, is to think I have to market I just I need to do marketing. And they don't, there's not really like a goal that's attached to that. It's like this thing you're supposed to check off. And unless you have a reason for doing what you're doing, and you have a goal that you're trying to reach, you're just doing stuff to do stuff. So the first question we always ask a prospective client is, what is it? What are you trying to do? Or what's the problem that you're running into? You know, what's the challenge that you're worried about? And that ranges from, you know, anything from no one knows we exist to we keep losing potential jobs to, we can't get anyone to put in an employment application, nobody seems to want to work for us. And then we, we walk that back, we sort of reverse engineer it. So okay, what we need to do is get you x, what are the best tools and approaches and strategy for doing that thing. So for one client that might be, you know, what, you need to redo your website, and you need a better social media strategy for another client, it might be, you have all the tools in place, it's just that none of your staff know how to use them. So why don't we, you know, train your staff and give them some policies and some guidelines and let us be your training wheels for a little bit. And then you're, you'll be fixed. So it, it is definitely, every client is different. Yeah, every solution is different. Well, yeah, each person is unique. They will however, like 7 billion people, that's 7 billion different perspectives. It's not one size fits all. Exactly. Yeah, it's, it can fit most, but not all. And I mean that that 7 billion number is such a great one to bring up. Because we do everybody gets stuck and thinking that the world is only as big as what they see. And the people in the world are like everyone in the world is like the people who are in their inner circle. And those differences matter both when you're trying to figure out how to best serve a company, but also in how you communicate with that company. Because every client has different preferences for how they like to be communicated with, how they like to be, how they like projects to be managed. And part of our job is also that work, you know, meeting the client where they are and not forcing the client to adopt our process, right? Yeah, you want it's a delicate, where you want to tell them what to do, but you don't want to force their hand because then they're gonna be like, yeah, we pull back on the tail, we don't want to sit anymore. Well, or they just get really angry. I mean, you see, like, if you've ever watched Mad Men, there's always this debate going on between, you know, Don Draper, and probably anyone about you just have to make the client do it, you have to make the client want to talk the client into it. And we kind of come out on it differently, which is we give the client our best recommendation, and we tell the client all the reasons why we think they should do what we think they should do. But at the end of the day, it's the clients business. And if the client really feels like, they don't want to do this, then that's okay. And rarely does that mean that the relationship has to end? Obviously, if the client wants to do something that's unethical or illegal, that's, you know, the totally different category. You don't want to associate with that. No, no, not worth it. But if the clients like look, I just really, really don't want to use that typeface, or I really, really don't want to talk about this service that I offer. Okay. You know, usually, if that's how it ends, the client eventually comes around, because they start to see that the decision that they went with, isn't yielding the results that they wanted. So for, especially a professional firm, would you say, just not like complete transparency, more transparency of what they do to give the general populace and potential clients that perspective. have what they are? Or like pick cherry picking, like, do we want it to say we detail hot rods, but we don't want to say we actually like, buy it from Mexico kind of thing, right? I mean, I think there's I think it's important to not be dishonest. So I'm gonna, I'm going to lead with that. And, you know, if you, if you don't want to disclose where you purchase your supplies from, you know, as long as you don't have to, then that's your business. But what you can't do then is let lead people to think that you get them from place x when you actually get them from place. Why, if you want to stay silent on it, you know, because it doesn't, doesn't serve your business to put that out front. Right, that's fine. I do think that transparency is really important. Without overloading people. So usually, the first thing that we start to look at when we're kind of trying to peel layers away to make firms more accessible is, okay, let's look at some of the language because as with any industry, you've got really industry specific terms that we sometimes called jargon, where you know, you know what they are, you use them with your colleagues and with your vendors all the time. But person off the street has no idea what you mean, when you use this word, or what that word means to most people has a different meaning than the meaning you've assigned it in your industry. So now you create confusion if you use this word. So that that usually takes a little bit to kind of say, okay, you say this, how would we say this in a different way, so that somebody who doesn't have any background or training in this would understand what you're talking about. That's the kind of transparency that I think creates really good relationships with prospective clients, transparency, about your education, your training, you know, all the experience that you have. There's an architect We spoke with years ago. And needless to say, there wasn't much that we could do for him. Because he, his quote was, he said, If I have to tell somebody what I do, then they don't deserve to have my services. Okay, hang on. I don't want to push that logic for. Cuz it's like, it's an architect, but it's like, how, how would Are you commercial? Your residency? I know a little of this stuff, but it's like, are you specific for this industry or that industry? How are you just saying, if they don't know what I do? They don't deserve to have me? Well, and he meant, like, quite literally across the board, like if he has to tell them what an architect does, if he has to tell them the specific services that are involved in retaining an architect. Like he just, he viewed his work as art. And that's not wrong. Because Yeah, architecture is art. But if you want to sell your services as an architect, like a business person, then yeah, then you do have to be concerned about explaining to people what you do. And it's, it's a mindset that can sometimes be really pervasive, you know, across all professional services. Yeah, it almost would be anything. I've, I've talked to a few hire executives, and they've, they've said the same thing. And they're like, it's when you try to explain it to someone else. It just gets frustrating. It's like you're saying the same thing over and over and over again? Yeah. And like, it's just, it's easier not to just say anything? Yeah. And you, you know, I think for any person who spent any number of years doing what they do there, they think about it all the time they eat, sleep, breathe it, it is both boring and tedious for them, and sometimes really difficult, have to spell out? Well, here's what I do. Here's what's involved. And they feel like why, why don't you know this already? Why should I have to explain to you, for example, you know, what a real estate attorney does, you should just be obvious, you should know this. So that's kind of where we come in. To is a bridge between the professional service provider and the prospective customer because we can see both sides of it. We know how the service provider is used to talking about what they do and thinking about what they do. And we also know how the prospective customer is going to be thinking and the questions that they're going to have and, and the information that they're going to want to see. To know that they should even contact this person for Longer discussion? Yeah. Because it like they have the basics and but no for an architect company, okay, he'll he'll design my house. But maybe there's a special thing they offer that it's like, Oh, I didn't know that that was not on the website kind of thing I would have, I would have totally throw that into the package. And that's like you said, transparency is very helpful when it comes to stuff like that. And it does help you it's I think it's always scary to more narrowly define what you do. Because by defining it, you're with every level of definition, you're removing other types of things, right? So if you say, for example, I'm a residential architect and I, I do beach houses. Okay, well, that means that somebody who's looking to do you know, a new townhouse or a condo renovation, they're not going to reach out to you. But that's your specialty, though. Well, if you're Yeah, I mean, if they need a beach house, and that's your specialty, you know, and that's what you do. You want those people to know that that's what you do. Right? You'll get fewer, you probably will get fewer contacts. But the ones that you do get are people who are really looking for your services. And you don't have to spend time talking to people and explaining No, I don't do that, or no, I don't work in your state, or no, you know, I don't do in ground pools or whatever the request is. So it can be it can be scary. But it also can really help grow your business to to articulate what it is that you do and what types of clients you're looking for. So from your perspective, doing the marketing, for businesses, how would you explain to them how to if they have they have a decent brand, but it's not great? How would they rebrand themselves? So let's say it's just a up and coming mom and pop up architect shop, they got a decent website, but the brand is not really sticking out. So I if so if a client said that, to me, a prospective client, my follow up question would be Tell me what you mean by the brand not working? Or tell me what you mean by the brand not sticking out? Okay, I'll play the play test. Yeah. So it's my website doesn't seem to get enough traffic. And I'm not getting as many likes as I would want for social media, maybe my plan is wrong for that. Perfect, those are great examples, because we have heard both of those. So for the website, the first thing we would do is run a number of audits on the site. Because there could be a million reasons why your website isn't getting traffic. And we need to figure out what those are, you know, does Google not know that it exists? Is it broken in some way? when people get there, can they not figure out where they're supposed to go? So does it take too long to load? So we have all these tests that we run as a first, first pass, and then we would discuss those with the client, you know, what we're finding? As far as the social media goes, I think we would discuss with the client. What do you what do you want to get out of social media, because social media is like a marketing tool? You know, it's just like marketing, it's a tool. So you can get a bunch of likes. And that's great. If it's not increasing the number of potential sales opportunities that you have, or the number of potential high quality employment candidates, if that's the thing that you're going for. That it's not, it may not be as useful to you as you thought it was. So that goes back to What's your goal? You know, if the likes or you have we have seen companies, they've got, you know, 800 likes, well, they're all from the employees, friends and family. Yeah. Cute and all but it's not like, yeah, and it makes people feel good, right? Like, they see the posts, they see the likes, and like, Oh, I'm really you know, this is great. Everybody loves my company. I'm doing something. Again, if that's not if that's not creating better awareness of you in the market, like if that social media post, if that's what causes somebody to go, oh, wow, I saw that new project that you did. You know, that was really impressive. Well, that's great. But if it's just liking for like sake. Yeah, that's not good. It's kind of a waste of your time and resources. Yeah. So I was talking To a marketing guy yesterday to and he has sent us like as great but brutal as it is he's like for Twitter as long as you get. He's like likes you're cute and all but it's the retweets are was spattered because then it hits someone else's arena. That's not even yours kind of thing. Yeah, and, and I think it depends on the type of business you are to b2c. So customers, businesses that deal directly with customers tend to see better engagement on Twitter than b2b, where you're selling your services to another business, or other professionals. Because Twitter is, that's just not where the b2b people right now are looking for meaningful engagement about business deals. So we tend to recommend that businesses in our spaces, focus on LinkedIn. And for ones that have visual components to them, like architects, that they focus on Instagram and Pinterest. Yes, that's where they're their clients are and for Facebook, you know, be on Facebook, don't be on Facebook. But Facebook isn't where people are looking right now for business, they might be looking for jobs. So if you're doing recruitment, Facebook is a good place to be bright, or because it's such a specialty LinkedIn jobs would have been a better route to even though it cost more it's more efficient at finding high quality content. Content. clientele, candidates. Yeah, it's Yes, yes. See? Yeah, no, totally. I mean, and, and, you know, I don't, I feel like I often sound like a broken record. And this time is going to be no different. But it also it, it always goes back to what is your goal? What are you trying to do. And if you're trying to do this thing, then here's where you need to be. And this is the type of content you need to have. And this is how these are the metrics you need to look at to judge whether you're being successful. You know, if you're, if you're trying to do y, then here's where you need to be. And these are the metrics you need to look at. I mean, one of the things that I think the metrics that I like clients to look at even more than retweets, or shares or anything is the conversions from that social media channels to their website, how many people clicked through to their site? And then how many of those people went to the contact page? So, you know, or submitted their email address or downloaded a white paper or whatever their their engagement means is? But yeah, it really just depends on goal. So let's just say upcoming company, hears about YouTube and podcasts, and it's the new future, how would you explain to them how to approach it, so they can explain to their potential clients without sounding like a complete, like, bumbling fool? So basically, how to explain the value of doing something like YouTube and podcasting, is that, yeah, we'll go with that. Okay. Okay. Um, things I would start with, everybody needs to be open to the commitment level. You know, you know, as well as anybody, if you're going to do a video series, or you're going to do a podcast, everybody has to commit to a frequency. And that frequency doesn't have to be every week, it doesn't have to be every day. But if you decide, okay, we're going to do a monthly podcast, then you need to be willing to put time and resources behind that monthly podcast. And the payoff can be rate. But the worst thing you can do is start something like that. And then just kind of let it die. Or you do it really sporadically, which doesn't allow you to grow your following. It doesn't help establish you, it doesn't grow your visibility and you know, podcast markets. So that's, I think that would be the biggest thing. And if people aren't ready to do that aren't willing to commit to it, then maybe put it on the list to revisit in six months. Do you think with the way trends are going that podcasting, YouTube, Instagram, Pinterest is the new marketing arena? Or is it it's a very good niche tool, but it's not fully there? I think it can I think podcasting I'm going to split up podcasting from YouTube. I think podcasting can be an amazing tool for businesses. I think Because people are looking desperately for new content, and because of the pandemic, movies and TV shows, many of them have been on hold, I think people are more people than ever are looking to podcasts or content. And I think it's a way to connect with people that you otherwise wouldn't have any access to. So I think that is absolutely some a place where there's a lot of room for growth. And something that we will continue to see expand and and the number of listeners with podcasts will continue to grow. And advertising on podcasts is highly, highly effective. So that's another way to think about marketing and podcasts, even if you're not going to do your own. Maybe there are a couple that you can advertise on podcasts that speak directly to the types of people that you're trying to attract. YouTube is is kind of a different animal in and of itself. Yeah, it's like a redheaded stepchild don't look at it. I know like some days, I don't even know that it's an animal. I don't know what it is. It's kind of this monster. And YouTube has great features about it. Oh, it does. Things that are less good are the inability to control what else is shown following your video, the ads that appear before your video, even the bar next to your video. So when you're watching a video, and there's like a right rail off to the side of the page that says like you're watching me like, Yeah, exactly, which, you know, most of the professional service audiences do are if they're watching YouTube, a lot of them don't go to YouTube. Because the content there is the Wild West, it really is. And they may go to look, you know, if they see a link in somebody's video feed or something, they'll go there and watch, you know, dogs playing in the snow, but they're going to jump right back away from it. We actually prefer Vimeo clients, okay, because you can control you can brand it all you can control. What else is shown, you know, you can set up a channel for yourself. So when somebody is done watching your video, you can take them to the next video in your series. But you don't have competitor companies popping up after your video is shown. Or at the bottom or on the right. You don't have ads, you can brand it the way you want to brand it. And I think that there's a we have clients too, who have taken the position. And I don't I don't think that this is a wrong position that YouTube has been a little bit irresponsible in allowing certain types of content to proliferate. And I've kind of taken a hands off approach of like, as long as the money is coming in, like Who are we to judge? And clients don't want to support that? Well, there's also the problem of they don't want, they don't want to encourage the extreme right? But then that's in town, they don't want to give the left too much at like leeway. So they just kind of like if you see these words, what you're done to Warhammer is hits you kind of thing. But then you don't know what that rule is. So what's the point? Well, I think there's there's political issues, there's copyright issues, you know, it's a huge one right now, just the plethora of stuff that infringes on other people's copyrights and trademarks. There's things that are, you know, being seen by children that are absolutely not appropriate for children by any metric. And the idea that this channel has kind of become the de facto babysitter for children and senior citizens is not great. It's disturbing. But the disturbing part is these as evil as they are, they know the system and how to work it. That's how they keep going. Well, and that's the thing is I don't I'm not even sure that I would call them evil because that implies that they have taken any sort of moral position. I think they're just completely amoral. They're completely morally agnostic. And if you give us content, we'll put it up. You know, we're not even putting it up. You're putting it up on our channel, so you're responsible for it, not us. And what I was talking about the content creator Yeah, yeah. Yeah. As I was listening my Wait, then they're very hands on in a creepy way. That was definitely evil. Yes. Okay. I was like, like, I know you're a lawyer. Do you probably win on this But it's like, oh, no, there's Yeah, there's some things are ambiguous. Other things are just plain wrong. Yes. Yes, that we can agree. So, one thing I've noticed recently, especially with the pandemic is the advent of like online streaming, kicking up like twitches up, they're actually getting copyright troubles now, too. But there's like, I think it's still one clubhouse. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then there's a competitor now called fireside. Mm hmm. What are you? What's your take on that? Well, you know, I think it's too soon to know from a an industry, you know, is this right for a client perspective, because I think they're just, they're just too new. And we don't have enough data on it. And anecdotally, what I have been hearing and seeing from people is that they're super excited to get on them. And then super frustrated. Once they are that they're like, this is just, it's just noise. And it's just clutter. And, you know, I don't know that that's been said about other platforms that years later proved to be tremendously successful, and they were able to find their way. But I think right now, there's so much noise in the world, that the idea of another forum for noise is just not appealing to me personally, right? If I thought it would do to client's needs, though, then that I would recommend it, but it would have to be doing something for them. So what's your Okay, tic Tock? It was kind of what I'm also trying to lean into, do you think that would be a good one for clients? Because of how hyper focused it is on finding the audience that they believe would be your friend? or certain clients? Sure, I think for the industries that we work in, those folks don't tend to be heavy tik tok users unless they're monitoring monitoring their kids accounts, which though they're probably just like a Yeah, they're not. They're not gonna be like, Oh, let me check out this, you know, amazing Assad material. There. So, yeah, I think it's, I think it goes back to, in some ways, the transparency that you mentioned, and I have grown to really kind of cringe at the word authentic, because I think it just gets way over us. Yeah, but even it's gonna be overused yet again. Because I think being authentic is really important. And this the way in which you appear on different channels, and the choice you make about the platforms to be on is impacted by how authentic you want to be. So if you were to imagine like, me think like a really old school, like been around since 18, something bank, let's say, or financial advisor, and everybody's very, like, their whole business brand is based on being, you know, fiscally conservative, and very white shoe and, you know, very proper, if you saw that they had a tic Tock account. And it was like one of their employees like swinging an umbrella and singing along to you know, pennies from heaven. You would think what has happened? brand? What actually, I wonder? I know, actually, I would be curious as like, Oh, this is cool. Like the baby is actually loosening up, I want to go check him out kind of thing. And that point, because if you did, and you went to their website, and you saw a totally different company, and you sign up for their newsletter, and it was like the website and you went to all their other social media channels, and it was like the website you would think I noticed that's not for me. You know, I'm, I'm not what I wanted was the tick tock version of them, which isn't really them at all. Yeah. And in tik tok. I tried that my hand out it did not work at all. But it was one of those. I noticed it though like, because I have fished I don't have the camera on I would have showed you. So I was just me. I made a tic tac toe continue talking about fish. And I was just it got 300 views. I'm like what the heck like I've just choked up talking about fish. There is no value here. But it found 300 people who believed was gonna appreciate it. And that I think that is the value. I think it does have value and the value is you made 300 plus people smile or laugh or give them some moment of joy in their day. A lot of value to it. Let's talk about that way. I mean, I don't think. And you know, we tell companies that too, like, sometimes you just want to put something out there to show your humanity, or to give something back to people. You know, you shouldn't always just be asking for a sale or pitching your services. That's people don't, they don't respond well to that. No. But I think, you know, if you were, let's say, you were IBM, you know, and you, you put out that video and you're like, Okay, we got 300 views. Well, now you're, you're taking that all of that information, and you're relating it back to your goal? What was the goal of us putting out that tech talk? What did we want to have happen? You know, are we trying to show people that we're like, a superhuman, fun brand? Are we trying to recruit younger staff? that somebody did we just hire a new social media person, and they don't understand what our brand is about? Yeah, that could definitely happen. Yeah. There's like, suddenly, what, six months later, you get a message from a fellow CEOs like so why are you on Tick Tock? Like, we're on Tick Tock? When did this happen? That is no joke, the number of times that we have worked with clients where when we because part of our onboarding process is to do if we're doing anything with their social we are digital presence, we do a total audit of, okay, where are you? You know, what platforms? are you on? What's out there about you? And the number of times that we come back and say, Did you know you had this? Or who has access to this account? And they have no idea that they're out there? They don't have any record of who set up the account? So it does happen? For sure. Yeah, that's that's one I've noticed, just through different times of working at different companies, like the manager just would come over and randomly just tell us Yeah, I don't know why, but or something on Instagram. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, that is just weird. You guys, all you guys post his food on there, too. So it's really misleading. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, there's some security guard because they didn't take the name of like, let's see, I'm gonna say the name, Allied universal. They didn't say that name. You made an account with the name. Hollywood post, is their burger they would buy for the day. It was freakin cheap. You guys, you're gonna do social media, you may also want to like keep tabs on that case, it's the guy down the way. Which is exactly right, because I'm laughing. And then I'm also crying inside, because I know that, you know, both our agency and internal people have at various points been tasked with, oh my gosh, like, get this shut down, get this candle back. And your point is exactly right. Even if you're not going to be on channels, you need to grab your handle, right to grab your account name because somebody else is going to. And the same thing with domain names. You don't need to be nuts about it and get you know every possible variation of everything. But you do need to buy up domain names that are you know, similar to yours that could be used by somebody who is either competing with you or is decided that they don't like you very much and and they're relatively cheap to like, I bought my domain name for like 12 bucks. Yeah, it's relatively cheap. So it's one of the go We can't afford it. Like, dude, you like you probably spend that and just paying for people to come to the meeting, then you do? like sitting around? You probably drink? Yeah. So you probably drink like a $12 latte calm down? Well, and think about, you know, what we we try to instill in our clients is every time you think like, Oh, well, you know, that's $12 I don't have to spend, well, what will it cost you to try to get that back? Or to try to get you know, you're gonna have to hire a lawyer to go it will be in the know the people who do this because I was at one point trying to study how to flip domain names, I buy it, boy, buy it hold it for a year kind of thing. That was sketchy. I decided not to do that. Good choice. Yeah. It's just one of those. J once it's, the person owns it, it is unless you get a lawyer. It's really hard to get rid of it. It is and the same with the social media stuff and and the social media stuff and the domain names frankly, those can be taken by somebody who doesn't even know you exist, and they're not tending intending to do you any harm. They're just that's the name that they wanted, you know, right? Yeah, like my Twitter handle is my initials, but then my last name, but that was taken, so I just put it under dash after it. Yeah, it looks clean and sharp, but it's the previous name was taken and the guy's super he hasn't used it since since like 2009. So even if I tried to, like message him, he's not gonna see it. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, unfortunately, in a lot of cases, as soon as somebody knows that you want it. They're not just going to be like, Well, here it is, you know, they want they want money for it. Yeah, they won't want any compensation because they Oh, apparently I have something valuable to you. Exactly. Exactly. So it's just, it's just good practice to claim those things and keep them and shelve them, even if you're not going to use them. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I remember when I was at a coffee shop, there were some, there was a startup company, and they were talking about different possible domain names. And I'm just listening, it's like this back pre COVID. So we're all sitting there. And this guy behind me a frickin mad lad. So they went through, like 25 names, and the guy bought all 25 Oh, yeah, did any say, if you want any of them, I will easily charge you 1,000% more than I paid. Jill, Oh, my gosh, either or do whatever it is you want, just leave and I'll give you one free kind of thing. That's some bad juju right there. That was kind of like, the horses, that mad lad of like, dude, he bought off like $100 worth of domain names. Just to still do it. Just do it. Right. Like, you cannot. I mean, you cannot. As as much as you ever think you can. You cannot predict human behavior with 100% certainty, God, no, it is. Whoever they figure it out is going to, they are never going to tell us. No. And they're going to be hiding under a table somewhere because it's too much as like at any moment, they can come into this building with a tank I need to hide. Pretty much. So let's go into a little bit of you being as lawyer What were you specialized in for us lawyer cuz I'm also going to curious, I want to know why you left quite lucrative job. Well, so I my practice focused on was about 50% split between commercial litigation and financial crimes, Criminal Defense work and securities. So the commercial can be anything from contract disputes, real estate disputes, partnership disputes. And then the the other side was state and federal and regulatory investigations and prosecutions of my clients for tax fraud, securities fraud, money laundering, all that kind of stuff. Okay, I was I was gonna ask that as it was in more white collar crimes where you and I haven't done anything physically wrong. You just get over rules. Yeah, there were some some cases outside of that, because our firm was on what was called the CJ panel, which is basically a group of firms that the court could assign cases that would otherwise go to the public defender, who might not have been able to do well, or if they were just they were either conflicted out like maybe they there were two people involved in the public defender represented one, they couldn't also take the other one. So we would take the other one or the public defender was just like, we can't take in more cases today. We would take them so I did have some assault cases. Some kidnapping. Oh, yeah. It was a really interesting docket. It was like, What else is there? Let's go into that. Now. This one, here's some of the craziest stories you've gotten in the courtroom. Oh, gosh, I mean, I will say one of the things that that our firm did, the approach that they took, which I valued enormously, I worked at a smaller firm, called a boutique firm is the name for it, but it was it really just means like a smaller firm that has a hyper focus on something. Our firm always tried to get the best result for the client, not necessarily to get a win at trial. So sometimes the best thing for the client is to settle it or to plead to a lesser charge, or you work really hard to get the case dismissed. It may not always be in the clients best interest for any number of reasons to go to trial. So I'm in trial was pretty minimal. I do remember my very first day in court, though, because it was a New York State Supreme Court. I had just been admitted to the bar. I had, the only court experience I had was from law school and their clinical program, which is, you know, not as high stakes. And the partner that was supposed to go with me bail Pressman, it was like, you'll be fine and sent me to this. It was an arraignment for a client who had been arrested for helping his girlfriend and her mother to launder money for a Colombian drug cartel. No, it was. It was, yeah, it was nuts. And thank God, like the prosecutor, on that case, was such a compassionate person, and felt so badly for me, that he was like, trying to interfere with the judge and to try to intervene and to be like, Well, I think what she means is x, or he would say to me, like, you need to ask for this. And then I would I mean, he was such a nice person, I will never ever forget that he did that. Because I think sometimes prosecutors get a really bad rap. You know, just like any group of people, they're not all the same. And what he did was, was really very kind. And I was so terrified. He probably just sitting there going, Oh, God, we got a green one. Oh, yeah, he was like, This is definitely your first time. There is like you don't know where to stand, you don't know what you're talking about, like, I'll help you out. And I thought I was gonna get fired. I was convinced that by the time I got back to the office, because the judge was friends with the partner that had sent me, I thought, by the time I get back to the office, there's gonna be, you know, a note on my desk, like, pack your things and go. And when I got back, I told the partner what had happened, and I was almost in tears. And he was like, Is that all? Like, that's nothing, you're a crime, you're fine girl, keep going. He was the same partner who always taught us one of his rules was, at the end of the day, somebody might go to jail. And the important thing is that it isn't you. It's really good advice. And that was, that was with the intention of making sure that we always did the ethical thing. We didn't try to skirt the rules, we didn't try to, you know, do something for our client that was maybe dodgy, in the hopes that, you know, the client would be happy, and we'd get away with it. Because that's kind of like a Better Call Saul don't do that stuff kind of thing. It's like, it's like you're sure this and that? Don't Don't launder money. Don't Don't arrange a murder for your client. Right? Don't do it. Don't hide evidence. Don't vouch for your client, like, yeah, it was it, but I love. I loved my firm, I loved the people that I worked with, I learned so much. I learned so much substantively about the law and all of the cases, but I also learned how to learn about somebodies business and what they're about really, really fast. Because sometimes when you meet a new client, you don't have a lot of time to get to know that client, to establish trust with them, to figure out how to best serve them, and especially in financial crimes cases, to learn all about the businesses that they were involved in and how they were set up and what they were doing. And that is definitely a skill that's come in very handy in my job now, which is that deep dive into a client's business and how it works and figuring out how to solve the problems. The things that we're not great, which caused me to kind of take a step in a different direction. We're just my inability to separate out separate myself from the clients problems. So yeah, that's a very hard one. Because she is you can resonate too well, and the more time you spend with them, you get to know their families, you get to know everything about them. And when they're going through things. They're coming conversations with you are privileged, their conversations with their friends are not. So you become oftentimes the only person that they can talk to about how they're feeling what they're afraid of. And you're not most lawyers are not equipped for that because that's not what we were trained to do. We were not trained to be psychologists no weren't trained to be therapists and Lord knows we do our best And I respect enormously, the lawyers who are able to maintain a much clearer wall between their emotions, and what's going on with the client. And I was finding myself, you know, with ulcers and not able to sleep, you know, if I knew that a client was needing to surrender, you know, to the Bureau of Prisons to begin their sentencing date, I would be up for days worried about them worried about their families. And I thought, This is This isn't good for me. And it's not good for them. Because every client is entitled to zealous representation. And if, if I'm impaired in my ability to do that, because I'm so upset or anxious about what they're going through, that's not really serving them either. No. So I decided to take what ended up being the first step away, which was to go and work as a consultant. Helping lawyers who had been doing one type of law, learn how to do a different type of law. And what that meant usually was people who had been working as prosecutors who left the prosecutor's office and wanted to start doing criminal defense work, I would help them figure out how to do that, basically, how to talk to clients, how to establish trust, how to look at a case, as a defense attorney, not as a prosecutor. Because when you've been prosecuting people for 1015 years, you have a style, you have a way of of talking to quote unquote, defendants, except that those defendants are no your clients, and you're supposed to be their advocate, and they're not going to trust you. If at the first meeting, you sit down, and you're sitting the same way you sat when you're a prosecutor, and your, your physicality is the same way and your tone of voice is the same way, they're going to feel like they can't trust you, and they're going to go somewhere else. So I did that for a while. And it was, it was really still kind of the same. I ended up, you know, feeling over time, just having the same worries and anxiety about what was going to happen to the clients. And it was during this time that I started doing some work for graphic machine, which was a company that my husband and started just kind of his like, side therapy work, you know, to have something else to do and think about. And I really, really enjoyed it. And eventually he just said, you know, you seem to really like this, you're good at it. Do you want to do this instead? And I said, Yes, I do. I really do. It's like, you know, me? Yeah, I want this, this is better. So, you know, the, the way I look at it is like the things all the things that I liked about law, which we're you know, figuring out people's problems and how to solve them. I get to do that now. It's just that nobody goes to jail. And that's kind of my that's my prediction. So you're more of a puzzle solver. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I would say I would assume with lawyers, you have to be very good in intuition and puzzle solving. Because you're given very small clues, if any clues and you're like now, make it seem like they didn't do it. It's like, okay, we'll get on this. Well, and, and you have to be, it can be so hard as as an attorney to because you have your intuition. But then you also have to always keep your intuition in check. Because you're a human being you come to things with a certain set of biases. And so you have to be able to sort out, you know, do I think that this is what's going on? Because I have reason to think this? Or am I coming to a conclusion because of something that happened before? Or because this person reminds me of another client. And that can be that can be tricky. Yes. The other thing that was great about my job, and that comes in handy here is the storytelling aspect of it. And, you know, when you're having to explain how it is that your client ended up involved in this extremely complicated tax fraud, you have to be able to explain it to a prosecutor, you have to be able to explain it to a judge, you might have to be able to explain it to the IRS. And in some cases, you have to be able to explain it to a jury. So you really have to be good at taking something that nobody thinks about or few people understand and breaking it down into concepts that people do understand and do resonate with. And you have to be able to do it in a way that best serves your client, which is you know what we're doing here. All right. So I wanted to touch on something you said earlier, was when you said you were doing your lawyer job and into consulting, you had ulcers and couldn't sleep? Mm hmm. Dude, was it the, because of the work? Or was it because of the stress of the unknown? I think I think it was option C, I think it was the, the awareness of the known. Oh, it was, I think it was part of it was the unknown, you know, what's going to happen to this person, what's going to happen to their family, what's going to happen to this, this child that's now going to grow up without its parent. And that, that's sort of the flip side of the same coin. And the other side is the known, which is, I know what this person is facing when they're going into a prison. I know what their spouse is facing. When they're going to continue life on the outside. I know what their finances are going to look like, five years from now, I know what the reputational damage is going to be not just to this person, but to their spouse and their children and possibly their children's children. And I know what will happen when this person does get out, you know, what, how difficult that readjustment will be. So it was it was really me spiraling over things that I didn't have any control over. And that's not healthy, it doesn't change anything. It's not good for anybody. But I think my ability to stop that was perhaps hindered a little bit by bit, go, go, go, go, go, go go, you know, like you're already burned out, you're already working like crazy and trying to get everything done. And so you don't necessarily have the mental resources to be like, I need to take a step back, you know, I need to practice mindfulness, I need to take better care of myself. And there have been, which I think has been great. There have been real movements by the American Bar Association, and local and state bars across the country, to try to prevent that from happening in lawyers, and to try to give lawyers the tools that they need to be able to cope with the stress to cope with the personal relationships to cope with both the known and the unknown. So you mentioned your journey and mindfulness. Have you also incorporated a type of meditation? Yeah, I have. I started meditating. When I was a sophomore in college, okay. And it was great. And I did it all through law school, and then I stopped because I, I was like, I'm too busy, I got to, you know, do all this other stuff. So within the past year, over the past, however many years, that was like, 20 years, I've come back to it, you know, in and out, but over the past year, I've, I've kind of read committed to doing it every day, because it does help enormously. I think it's really important. And it's, it's something that for me makes a huge difference, day to day, but also week over week, month over month. It is it's one of those people who don't realize the full power of it, that when you're meditating, you can truly put yourself in any state of mind. You can calm yourself, but you can also what people don't realize is when like, when you're watching social media, the trance you get in a similar trance state as a meditation. So you just feed all that negative in? Yeah, when do you never meant to? Yeah, I think that's a really apt way of describing it. You know, you are your thoughts. And you are what you are exposed to. So if you're on a steady diet of you'll never guess what happened. 14 exclamation points. You know, you're going to be more on edge. And, and you're not going to have that. That ability to kind of cope with things. When they change. It's not if they change because everything will change. The only constant in this world is the no it's only certainties, uncertainty. That is correct. That is correct. And that's a hard thing. It's a hard thing for everybody to cope with. And it's a hard thing for I think anybody whose career is based on predicting certainty, and trying to shape certainty, and it's a hard thing for anybody who has gone through periods. of their life where the lack of certainty represented a mortal threat to them, you know, that they were they were food insecure, or they were unhoused or they were facing abuse of any kind that need for certainty for everything to be okay. shouldn't really be crippling? Absolutely, yeah. And it's one of the probably the biggest downfalls most most people business non businesses, because they'd like, Oh, I tell people do it a lot. But it's like, oh, I can plan my way to 10 years from now, I'll be successful. There's, of course, a few people who can. But we're not like you and me are not actually sitting here going. So your 10 year plan? How are we going to achieve this kind of thing. And I say, you know, it is important, it's important to make a plan as a goal. But when you become so fixated on the plan, never changing, that you don't allow yourself to have the goal change. Maybe the goal that you set five years ago, isn't the goal that you want anymore, or the goal that you need anymore? And it would be ashamed to think, well, this is the goal I set out when I was 25. So I guess this is my life. Now. I mean, that's, there's no reason to do that. No, not at all. And I think we all put ourselves through every day. This litmus test against standards that we think we're supposed to have, or that other people have set for us? You know, I'm supposed to know this. I'm supposed to have a process for this. And, you know, I think you just have to find what is the word again, authentic, authentic, you know, and, and what works for you and, and what serves you. You know, there are your point 7 billion people like it can't be that the same path is, is works for every single one of them. And like I tell my co workers out there like because I've been sitting, trading and investing and all right, oh, you're gonna be a multimillionaire Mike. Well, there's a million ways to the top of the mountain. I don't know which one I've taken. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, which mountain Do you want to climb? Exactly? Yeah. Who first probably want to go swimming? Like I don't you know, what these things that that people the assumptions that people make? They can? Yeah, it's just impressive. Like, oh, you're studying this, you're learning what Wall Street does, you're gonna be a multimillionaire in like, two years. It's like, no. Yeah, I read that. I'm just thinking about the number of people that I represented that, you know, they heard that and they were like, Yes, I am sweet. And they listened to people that they shouldn't have listened to. Who were like, you know, here's the fast track up that mountain. Yeah, I think it's like use the secured live. But by the way, by using the ski lift, you kind of cheated. But you get to the top. Exactly. And then cross your fingers that nobody finds out that you cheated. I mean, that's that's not to live. But, you know, the one thing everyone tells me like, Oh, I know how business works in finances, you just, you fudge the document, you hire a lawyer, and you hire a good accountant to fudge it kind of thing. I'm like, No, you don't fuck up the IRS, as the Lord have mercy. No, you do not you do not you and, and that, that type of thinking is just an and I have seen it in individuals. I have even seen it in big corporations and big institutions where it's the cost of doing business. And it's, it's bad. You know, it's, it's, it's bad across the board. And it's bad karma and it's bad practice. And, you know, I think any him if you're doing your budget and you have a line item for like, budgeting, then you are doing something wrong. Yes. Wait, can I sit there for a second? Wait, wait a budget? You have to put it? Oh, no, you don't have to put a budget into a budget? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess we could just call it lying. Like it could be the line line item if you ever line line item. No. You're joining us live. We don't talk about that one. Totally. Totally. Yep. Wrong. Oh, hi, guys. Well, thank you patience. This was awesome. I definitely need to get you on in the future. No, that would be great. It was so nice to talk to you. Thanks so much for having me on. You're welcome. Anything you want to plug so I can put in a description. I mean, graphic machine, I guess. Grab that part out right where I'm at. hemming and hawing? Yeah, sure. Yeah, no, I mean just graphic machine, you know, digital marketing and business development for professional firms. Alright, awesome. Dan also hit you up via email for that too. Oh, that'd be great. All right. Thank you again, patients. Appreciate you. You too. Bye bye.

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